raimund minichbauer:
you are the one who developed the idea of interference
and you curated the project together with ilze black.
how did the idea come about and how was the choice and
combination of the four projects
which form interference
made?
anna harding: i proposed
to develop a public sound project called interference
as part of republicart.
then, last summer i brought my colleague ilze in to work
on this with me. we met various artists and talked about
what kind of projects we were interested in, and we ended
up deciding that it was not going to be site-specific
in the sense of sound-installations, but that it would
be more like participation in the sounds of the city -
absorbing what is happening and then throwing in something
as a response to what is going on. the project is actually
uncompromisingly local, and i really like that aspect
of it. it is something that a gallery would find impossible
to do, because they would be scared that they wouldn't
get the audience, or that people wouldn't find it, etc.
i think interference is very much filling a gap that the art world in london
finds impossible to deal with, because it is so preoccupied
with corporate image and audience statistics, they would
never be able to take on this kind of work. but we also
linked up with high profile art institutions like the
whitechapel gallery, who listed our events in their brochure,
and by this created some awareness of the work within
mainstream art culture as well as very local.
if you are doing a project like
this, you have got to really work hard on the audience
and the participation - that involves huge amounts of
work. it is not just about producing the art, it is actually
about producing the engagement in the art.
we invited each artist to
make a proposal and then discussed with them our opinion
in relation to knowledge of the area. (graeme miller’s
project was already commissioned by the museum of london
and artsadmin.) i feel i have some insight into how things
work in these communities. i have lived in the area most
of the time since 86 and have kids in local schools. i
think a lot of knowledge of how communities work has to
inform this kind of project. and it is that kind of knowledge
that most gallery curators don't really have the expertise
in, something that i think is lacking in the art world.
i am really interested in - and i've written about this
actually - curatorial practice and degrees of specialism
required to work with participatory projects. you can't
just as a curator think that you can work in local communities
without any specialist knowledge. that is really problematic.
raimund minichbauer:
what topics have you written about?
anna harding: i have
written since 96/97 on participatory practice and about
the aspirations versus the outcomes, the claims versus
the reality. i often find that public art projects can
be documented in a certain way, which makes them look
as if they were extremely effective, but the reality
might have been completely different, or: different
people's expectations or experiences of the project
are so diverse: the artist might have thought it was
terrible, but a participant might have thought it was
fantastic. there are so many different combinations
of good and bad, effective and ineffective. i am very
interested in how a project like this involves so many
different parties and different perceptions of quality
and of success. as a curator i am always interested
in the experimental points, where you really question
your practice, or you are really testing what your practice
can achieve. i always find thinking you can do anything
in a local community hugely problematic, because there
are so many questions like: what are your motivations
here? why are you doing this? who is it for? why do
you think you know anything about this? i think it is
really important constantly questioning your motives
and the material you are generating, and keeping it
responsive, and really taking on board the feedback,
or really seeking feedback, because i think it is often
easier not to know what people thought. actually you
don't learn anything unless you really want to know
what someone really felt, that they didn't like something,
or that it was embarrassing or really inspiring. you
just need to know those things, i am really seeking
feedback, so that the next projects will benefit from
such knowledge. it is an ongoing practice. it is not
just: this is me, that's my project, move on to the
next show. if you choose to engage in a participatory
project, you have to have a commitment to learning from
it.
raimund minichbauer:
where does the idea come from - to interfere in the
sounds of the city?
anna harding: it is not
about interference IN sounds but that sounds ARE interference,
like a crackle in the air waves. in fact this project
was inspired very much by a summer i spent in rotterdam.
i was a curator in residence and stayed in an artist-run
studio building. one evening i just recorded out of
the window of the studio, just the surround sound out
of the window, and it was such an amazing, really, really
hot night in this heat wave summer. you know, hanging
outside on the balcony at night, you hear these incredible
sounds coming out of people's windows. like in venice,
you suddenly hear someone strike up an opera out of
their window and you can't see where it is coming from,
but you just hear this amazing sound. i just had this
really crisp summernight-sound, and it was just like
people's conversation out of their window - i've got
the recording somewhere, i was thinking that it maybe
inspired this project in a way. summer nights can be
really noisy in london, kids play out in the streets
really late, and people have their parties, everyone's
got their windows open. so i just thought maybe this
project could tune in to some of that and give a bit
of space to that fantastic quality of sound. that's
my personal aspiration, but what we end up with - it
is all in development as we speak. it is about what
is around you now, what it feels like, expressing that
back.
raimund minichbauer:
interference
refers generally to east london and focuses on the local
area - tower hamlets, bow, south-east hackney -, where
one can find e.g. the catchment area of the temporary
radio station of radio
cycle and also the live-presentations of interference
in the framework of the bow arts festivals will take
place. what is the trait of this area?
anna harding: south east
hackney - a central feature is victoria park and then
there is regents canal, on which the community is neighbouring.
it is quite a mixed community. there are certain bits,
which are very gentrified. there is a lot of money coming
in - people who work in canary wharf buying up houses;
it is very expensive. there is also a strong old cockney
community, which is still very vibrant in bow particularly,
but also in south hackney. in addition to those that's
a very mixed community, there is a lot of turkish people,
there is a lot of somali people, different african communities.
bow has a very old chinese community, going back two-three
hundred years, greek, kurdish, vietnamese, and then
there is a very strong bangladeshi community - further
into whitechapel.
raimund minichbauer:
did the area change a lot through this gentrification
process and the people working in canary wharf coming
in?
anna harding: well, there
are different pockets. there is a lot of council housing
– the area was bombed heavily during the war, so there
are a lot of post-war estates, which are culturally
diverse. then there are victorian terraces, which are
combinations of housing association rents, which tend
to be culturally diverse, and then privately owned homes,
which are a mixture of old cockney families and new
people, who have money.
i've mainly been promoting
our project through the local schools and the community
centres. people with money don't tend to use those facilities.
so we are really addressing a genuine local public as
opposed to people who live here but go to a private
school for instance, or people who are out at work all
day and don't know what goes on down the street. it
addresses people who use idea
store because there is free internet access. if
you go down and see who uses those facilities, it is
people who are smart/intelligent, who make the most
of free resources and make good use of local facilities.
raimund
minichbauer: idea store
is a cooperation partner of interference. what kind of facility is it?
anna harding: it was
opened about 18 months ago. in the borough tower hamlets.
they decided that they wanted to create a new generation
of library that is more accessible and better used by
the community. they gradually closed down old libraries
- to a lot of people's horror. this is the first of
a new type of library/cafe/internet-access.
it is a landmark new organization, part of new orientations
within the council of tower hamlets. the head of the
council, michael keith, is professor of urban studies
at goldsmiths college. and sergio dogliani, the director
of the idea store, comes from a background running an
adult education centre; he is very familiar with getting
people involved in community activity.
raimund minichbauer:
the interference
projects are often connected with schools.
anna harding: yes, for
example as part of zoe irvine's magnetic
migration music, we have set up stalls and run them
the last couple of weekends at school summer fairs.
normally in a school fair, there are stalls where you
can play different games. so we just set up our table
with bits of old cassette tape, a tape recorder, some
cards to hand out, and collecting envelopes, so people
come by saying, "well what's your stall?",
and we can say: "if you find a tape, send it in."
it is all about one to one talking to people. Also radio20pwhitechapel:
the project demonstrates pilot uses of the uphone systen,
which gives people the possibility to phone in and have
their messages automatically uploaded to the internet.
at my request, kate rich has set up a special uphone
service, responding to the big problem in hackney with
school-places, lots of kids haven't got a place in school
next year. there are lots of very angry parents around,
so i said: "look, they really need a phone line
to get their stories down."
raimund minichbauer:
what is the environment for radio
cycle here on the local radio like?
anna harding: on the
radio very close to our frequency, you've got ghana
radio, you've got london greek radio, endless pirate
stations, overlapping on the radio dial. so each different
community is served by it's own radio station. and this
is the question i have for the artists and my co-curator,
to define the audience this is for. because to me that
is the most important thing that people tune in because
this is something they identify with or it represents
them. what is the community of this project? or is it
generating a week long community, a temporary community?
how does that manifest itself? how many people listen
in when you are doing on air broadcast? and that i find
really a problem in terms of putting out a project without
any sense of feedback.
you've really got to know. you've got to check down
the streets and ask did you listen in? what did you
think of it?
raimund minichbauer:
the projects in republicart
explore participatory practices mostly on the basis
of visual arts and the specificity of interference
is that it is a sound project. what are your experiences
- does sound trigger a different form of participation?
anna harding: i would
say, it probably does - in the sense that visual art
has so many preconceptions associated with it that sound
doesn't. for instance, at the launch of graeme miller's
project yesterday, the deputy mayor made a speech saying,
when they were approached about this art project, they
imagined a mural or a banner. that is their preconception
of a public art work.
they were surprised to find that it was sound,
they had never thought of this being art. by working
directly through sound you don't have the barrier of
saying " is it art," having to overcome the
threshold of "what is art?" and "art
isn't for me" etc. it is just sound, everyone listens
to the radio, everyone makes sound. you don't have to
go through the art route, it is much more direct. All
those in the project have an art convention behind them,
and as a curator my background is also the tradition
of visual art. but finding the gallery system sometimes
limiting, it can be much more enjoyable working more
directly with audiences. you can forget all those hang-ups
about going over the threshold into hallowed art space
- ok, participation in any project involves ownership
and thresholds, opting in or out, but the conversation
is much easier, because cassettes, audio tape, radio
is an everyday transaction. at the same time, everyone
involved is coming out of a fine art practice, as opposed
to a musician. i think therefore you've got a specific
take on sounds, a conceptual take on what you are trying
to do with it, which is quite different from a musician.
raimund minichbauer:
thank you very much!
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