raimund
minichbauer: what
are the preconditions in both places?
sara
reisman: new york
has this strong history of alternative spaces that,
over the last 25 - 30 years, have offered different
kinds of exhibition opportunities to artists. but
then, what has happened to the alternative spaces:
they have been forced to become more institutionalised
in terms of operations, which means they need to
be more polished and respond to fundraising pressures,
and so there are these - not limitations -, but
there is just more pressure to plan really far in
advance, thus losing some of the spontaneity and
flexibility upon which they were founded. so what
it means is that an artist or curator can approach
a space and it could take like a year and half before
they give him a show. so i think also what is interesting
about projects like 16beaver
group and brewster,
was people taking matters in their own hands and
saying - 'well, the alternative space, it is not
an alternative any more. it is where you go to get
a certain kind of recognition to keep going through
this sort of path in the art world.' then, as i
was looking at these kinds of projects, i was looking
at the center for urban pedagogy (cup)
and cabinet
magazine
as also different uses of space or different alternatives
to exhibition venue. on the one hand cabinet
magazine functions as this portable venue for
artists to propose projects like the paper
sculpture show .
but then, on the other hand you have something like
the center for urban pedagogy, which is not about an opportunity for artists,
but it is about an analysis of how public space
is used and how it can be envisioned differently.
cup is
interesting for inscribing
the temporal in a different way than the others,
because their work examines the politics of public
space and then attempts to envision how it can be
used. they produced a couple of shows in new york
in alternative spaces like the storefront for art and architecture
and the tenement
museum,
which is also with public components, because both
spaces function as storefront galleries.
raimund
minichbauer: were
the public components a basis / point of departure?
sara
reisman: the projects
that were the starting point of the show, which
was brewster
project, 16beaver
group and tugboat
film and video series, had a very public component,
putting art in non-art environments. this requires
a certain form of collaboration with the community
that uses the sites or that becomes the site of
the work that is made or presented. an alternative
space may require collaboration with a community,
but there is something very different if you operate
a space, and you pay rent - you are entitled to
do what you want with that space, whereas if you
are doing something on the waterfront or in a village
outside of new york city, you do have to negotiate
with people on a local level, and i think that is
really integral to the work. I am interested in
this potential for collaboration and dialogue between
arts and non-arts.
raimund
minichbauer: you already
mentioned that cup
was in an other way interesting than other projects
in inscribing
the temporal. in which ways does cup
participate in or intervene into urban planning
processes?
sara
reisman: they are
not intervening in a heavy-handed way, but for example
in new york city, there are local town hall meetings
and open meetings that anyone can go to, but many
people don't know about them or just wouldn't get
involved. the members of cup
have taken on certain issues or used space issues
like governors island,
and they have done a lot of work on housing laws.
they are considering how the ability to live in
new york, to afford to live in new york is really
changing (which has a direct impact on how artists
can or cannot survive in New York City). these housing
laws that cup
has been involved with in the discussion or that
it is documenting is a way of understanding the
politics of how different neighbourhoods are zoned
in terms of housing laws. in new york, if you are
lucky, you move into an apartment that is rent-stabilized,
that means that the rent each year can only go up
two percent or four percent, but those tenement
protection systems have really changed a lot and
deteriorated because of the real estate market.
what cup
did with these - they went to meetings, they interviewed
people about housing, they investigated the public
housing system, and asked a lot of questions about
'how does this work?', 'how can you be involved...?'.
on the one hand cup
functions
by intervening in the process itself, but then they
are also presenting that intervention in a way that
is educational and has the potential to change how
individuals think about their role in the process.
some of their works are exhibitions, but just as
often they facilitate educational programming that
informs the aesthetics of their design and artistic
work.
raimund
minichbauer: cup
shows in the exhibition a wall-installation. was
it produced especially for the show?
sara
reisman: it is a combination
of documentation of different projects that they
put together just for the exhibition. the piece
is called this
is what democracy looks like!
raimund
minichbauer: is it
the same aesthetic language they use in their own
shows, or are their own shows more like information
exhibitions?
sara
reisman: it varies.
i remember when they did their show at the storefront
for art and architecture, the
programmable city. they invited several architects
to make proposals -architectural models articulating
possibilities for ideal housing structures in urban
contexts. i think the aesthetics range from very
clean architectural design, to photographs, which
are more like documentary aesthetics - very realistic
and there is something very straightforward about
it. but they also sometimes involve students in
their projects where they do educational programs
in schools, in elementary and middle school about
zoning laws and how that affects life in the city.
then saying to kids like: now that you know how
urban space is zoned, how do you think urban space
should be organised in a way that benefits? it is
like giving them the overview of how cities are
planned or could be planned and then asking them
to envision that. from those kinds of activities,
there are drawings or pieces produced by students,
and so they included this one in this
is what democracy looks like. for example, a
map that a student drew, it is a utopian vision
of how the city should be physically organised.
raimund
minichbauer: a number
of pieces in inscribing
the temporal are connected to the brewster
project. what is it about?
sara
reisman: the brewster
project is a situationist art event that takes
place for a weekend in summer. brewster is about
two hours from new york city by train. it is a small
town that first for some years functioned as a commuter
town, where people would commute to new york city
for work, and now it is more developed. what's interesting
about it, and why i think it was chosen by the three
organizers, was that if you look at it, it just
looks like a very typical small town with a main
street and a little diner and a pool hall. there
are very typical american things about it, but it
also has an interesting socio-cultural mix. there
is a growing latin american community and there
are also people who have lived there for a couple
of generations. so in its way, it is diverse. the
background of the project was that these three organizers
wanted to just produce a situationist weekend and
invite artists and curators to come and make projects
in response to the location and in some cases create
site-specific, situationist, and performative work.
part of the appeal of brewster is that the people
who live there were interested in hosting it. there
are a couple of main organizers from brewster who
agreed to work on the project, but then there are
a lot of people who were sort of bystanders, who
then became involved as things were happening. i
don't know if they took ownership or how they regard
it, but ... they made it happen. without a community
around it, most of the projects couldn't have happened.
and also there is a factor of people experiencing
the work which makes it real, gives it life in a
way it isn't just for ourselves in the art-world.
raimund
minichbauer: is it
an open invitation to participate?
sara
reisman: yes, the
people who organise it invite curators and the curators
invite artists. there is some letting go of control
by the organizers who invite curators to invite
artists. so there is also a social component. it
is like if you have a dinner party and you invite
people to bring friends. you don't know what will
happen; there is a lot of that within the project.
raimund
minichbauer: one project
from brewster here in the show is the video reading public meaning.
sara
reisman: matthew buckingham
has done his ongoing video series of reading
public meaning, where he goes to a city or to
a location and invites people to read from books
that are important to them. in brewster he worked
with the public library to invite people to take
their favorite book from the library shelf and read
the first paragraph. it is a performance, but you
also see how people read and maybe what meaning
they emphasise in the text and what it means to
them. here in vienna we were going to work with
the public library, but what became more interesting,
was to think about the wuk
as a place, where all these associations and corporations
of different cultural groups are located, and to
ask them to read from books within their spaces.
many of them have little libraries, like a corner
where they keep their books. and they all seem to
function very differently, there is the persian
corporation, which has the most formal and the biggest
library of all the places we saw. and then there
is the school here, the kids were like 7 or 8 years
old. so, it was maybe a more diverse approach than
in brewster. that's a different way of inscribing
the temporal, taking this site-specific project
and just doing it in a new place and seeing how
the conditions of the new place and the dynamics
of the new place reshape the work.
raimund
minichbauer: how did
the recontextualisation reshape these processes?
sara
reisman: well, it
reshaped it in that there were seven different locations
throughout the wuk,
where buckingham initiated the readings. more ground
is covered here in vienna than in brewster, where
it was just in the library on one table. so, there
was a dynamic moving around the wuk to see
these different locations and people in these locations.
for the most part it seems that people who read
had some strong relationship with this place. we
don't know if people who came to the library in
brewster went to the library a lot. and also, maybe
there were people just passing through certain locations
here, but it seems that the wuk
functions as a community centre to more communities
than it might be the case at the library in brewster.
raimund
minichbauer: how were
the other brewster-projects
in the show transferred?
sara reisman: there are
a couple of works in inscribing
the temporal, that are by artists who were at
brewster, but there wasn't a way to recreate what
they did at brewster for inscribing
the temporal, so they made other projects. for
instance, the social
labels piece by austin thomas. when she was
in brewster two summers ago, she was doing a series
of public projects called perch.
a perch is like a patio, or like a deck that she
would build out of wood and you can climb onto it
and get a new perspective on a situation conceptually,
but it also becomes it's own social space, where
she hosts people. so she made a perch. it is a pretty
big piece, and we talked about a possibility of
shipping it. and she said, 'maybe i'll think about
doing something that enhances social space and addresses
social interactions.' so she came up with the idea
of social labels, which are these labels on the
beer bottles that were donated for the exhibition.
so, that wasn't at brewster, but we had to be open
to the idea that some of the works wouldn't transfer
here. and also the bandrider
series
by jennifer and kevin mc coy - they did a project
for brewster two summers ago that was called every
shot, every episode,
a
video database of shots from the original starsky
& hutch
series.
they created digitized archives of television shows,
that are ubiquitous in american culture, or at least
the reruns are always available. they have done
this for different tv shows, and in that project
they archive starsky & hutch. they asked viewers
to function as perfomers in the piece by sitting
down and then watching starsky & hutch, and
then narrating what they are seeing. part of the
idea was the subjectivity of how television media
is viewed, but also how entertainment media is constructed
from the experience of seeing it. we talked about
doing that here in vienna, and in the end they had
just done this bandrider series at the smack
mellon in brooklyn in new york. we just decided
it might make more sense to do something like this,
because it translates maybe in a simpler way. there
is a similar theme within it, because the bandrider
is the list of objects, that an artist or celebrity
requires to be present in their dressing room, when
they make their appearance.
brewster
- it is not like you could take a whole thing, like
everything from the project and present it here;
you would need a whole show on it's own. so, the
idea was: let's take some projects from the project
and see how they translate here, or transfer.
raimund
minichbauer: what
are the political approaches in the projects?
sara
reisman: within the
range of works in the show, or within the range
of projects that have been broader than the works
- they all function in a political way, but i guess
the question is: how do you define politics? for
example cabinet
magazine does not take a direct political position,
but many of the texts are critical and open and
it is a form of alternative media. and if you look
at the brewster
project, they are not taking a political position,
but in new york or in the us, it might be political
to say, 'we are going to put on an arts program
that is free to the public and responds to everyday
situations.' the way the projects function politically
varies greatly - the tugboat
film and video series has an environmentalist
approach in that the working waterfront association,
which produces the project,
advocates for environmentally feasible uses of the
new york - new jersey waterways. it also works to
maintain the waterfront lands as public space with
public access, and to keep people aware of environmental
issues on the waterfront. and tugboat
in a way acts as like a publicity project for the
working waterfront
association, the films and videos within it
are about the waterfront thematically and aesthetically,
but they are not like commercial videos for political
lobbying or for preservation efforts. it really
just brings people to the waterfront where they
get to see the natural beauty of the waterfront
that is there. and they might start using that pier
more and then have a larger stake in maintaining
these places as they are for the public. a little
bit background is that the working
waterfront association was founded almost six
years ago in an effort to raise awareness of the
effect of redevelopment. there are sections of the
waterfront that are privately owned, and then there
are sections that are public. and for a lot of the
public lands there have been efforts from real estate
developers to buy them up for private use. so, working waterfront association brings people to the waterfront to
use it. they have also done advocacy for cleaner
waters, and one of the things they do every year
is swim the
apple,
where they take people out on a tugboat and then
they go swimming in the hudson. and the hudson is
not clean.
but the idea is that people are going to know that
someone swam there, and to ask how clean it is.
they have done production for other arts programming
on the waterfront, like martha bowers
site-specific community based performance safe
harbour presented in red
hook,
which is a neighbourhood in brooklyn that is also
on the waterfront with an interesting cultural history.
the center
of urban pedagogy is very directly political.
they are taking the strategies of working within
the system and then revealing those processes. it
also shows that the system is quite opaque unless
you are committed to being involved in these processes
for many years.
for 16beaver
group, what i think is really interesting is
not so much their politics externally, but the internal
politics...
raimund
minichbauer: 16beaver
started three years ago as a group that rented a
space in manhattan's financial district, renting
out sections of it as studios for artists. there
is also a collective space, which functions as the
physical base for an open platform: people, who
are not necessarily connected to the group, use
it for screenings, readings, discussions, there
are open mailing lists...
sara
reisman: 16beaver
is often described as a collective, sometimes as
a collaborative group and some people say, 'no no,
we are individuals, who are connected to this space.'
so there are all these different ways of thinking
about it and in some way that is a very political
thing to do, to say: we can be all these things
and we keep going forward. it is not necessarily
anarchistic, but it can be really difficult to work
through those differences and ideas about how this
should work. to me it is amazing that within these
varied definitions of the working relationship between
ten to forty people at a time, they are able to
accomplish so much. i think it is possible, because
it is an open framework. they have a space and they
are able to say: o.k., every monday we do something
and different people can participate. it is like
a number of networks that converge at 16beaver.
raimund
minichbauer: can these
forms of cooperation be described a bit more in
detail?
sara
reisman: there is
not a closure on how the process is described. it
is never like: 'this is how we work.' they just
have a framework of the space and certain ongoing
projects, but the process is not closed. i think,
they are unwilling to say: 'this is exactly what
we do, this is how we always work.' because, if
that is always how they work, how is there room
for other people to enter into that? maybe there
is room, maybe there is not. and actually by not
being totally clear about the process, maybe some
people say: 'i don't understand that and that creates
a kind of exclusion.' in a way that's maybe a selection
process for who participates, if people are comfortable
with the openness of the process.
raimund
minichbauer: how was
it possible to represent this openness in the exhibition?
sara
reisman: their art
is the process of dialogue or the process of creating
a link. the information
sandbox
they created managed to capture that for a show.
it is a place on the floor where gallery visitors
can sit down at and sift through these objects that
are put together. within the information
sandbox, there are a lot of layers of projects.
one thing they wanted to do for this exhibition,
was a series of projects called strategies of resistance
and i think that the homeland
security cultural bureau
and radioactive
really fit in with strategies
of resistance. They made an invitational description
and posted it on their website for the show here,
just to say 'if you want to participate', like inviting
participation, so that there could be the development
of a network amongst different cultural producers
and artists and writers and thinkers to discuss,
what strategies of resistance in these political
times are with the idea that the result of this
thinking and dialogue could be presented in the
exhibition.
another thing they wanted
to do for this show and which is also a kind of
ongoing work, is this banned film and video series.
the idea was to collect - and it fits into the notion
of strategies of resistance - films and videos from
around the world that were banned and to put them
together in an archive.
there is also this project
souvenir,
for which they asked artists to come and make souvenirs
to be sent to vienna for the show. some people made
very finished objects, and some people brought in
objects that are always around in the financial
district, like souvenirs of assaulted gift shops
in these tourist locations, because 16beaver
is in the financial district, but also right next
to battery park, which is a historic site and a
point of departure for tourist things (you can get
the ferry to liberty island or to ellis island).
i think with the souvenirs, it is just like a way
of capturing the aesthetics of that neighbourhood.
it is like 'these are the objects that you can find
anywhere' or 'these are the objects to be souvenirs
from our neighbourhood but from us specifically'.
so the idea is that you can sit down at the info
sandbox and there different things were redone.
they also included readings from recent reading
series they have organized on monday nights and
what has shaped their thinking as a group. i think,
for how large they are, for how many people participate,
they really managed to come up with a good way of
presenting what they do and what they are about.
i also think that what they were most interested
in doing was recreating 16beaver
here. they created this kind of framework, where
you can go and look at the website and you can look
at the objects of their work and piece together
things and maybe have a dialogue inspired by their
dialogue.
raimund
minichbauer: what
are the problems in this cooperation?
sara
reisman: what i did
see, is that certain people put in a lot of work
and i would think that it is hard for a group, that
everyone gets credit in a certain way, when it is
a small number of people putting in the work for
the most time. But, who knows? it has only been
around for three years. there can be a long time
to really look back and reflect on how 16beaver
group has worked consistently, because there
are different variations, and there have been different
people involved, so it is very much about the combination
of personalities for a given moment. that is something
you can't describe so well in a show, but you can
show maybe one version that a group came up with
leading up to the show.
raimund
minichbauer: there
are plans to produce a second exhibition of inscribing
the temporal in new york?
sara
reisman: i'm not sure
it makes sense to present work that has been seen
in vienna. but maybe we can create an archive and
that can be the beginning of something else, it
could be an ongoing project. what is being accomplished
here and seeing how interesting the archive is made
me think about that maybe there is a point to setting
up a show in new york where we bring in some work
from vienna that's not been seen in connection with
the archive that is developing here, but maybe it's
about setting up an archive for new york. i think
the question i am getting to, is: is it worthwhile
to create an archive in new york and will people
be interested in that and will they use it? a couple
of non-profit places have slide-registries, and
the galleries have slide files where the pieces
get categorized by different formal aspects, and
then curators come in and do research for a certain
kind of work. maybe the work of these independent
groups has a place in some kind of structure that's
similar. but the question is, in a place like new
york who would provide this space, who is interested
in it then? does it become an administrative thing
only, or is there a kind of a curatorial component?
maybe that's looking much further ahead than i can
do in terms of just a new york version of the show,
but there could be a focus on setting up an ongoing
archive similar to what’s been established here
at kunsthalle
exnergasse.
raimund
minichbauer: thank
you very much.